I have changed the title of this post because the open house is over but I would like to keep the discussion of cycling in North Saanich (and cycling in general) open.
Here is a link to ICBC’s Top Safety Tips for Cyclists:
http://www.newswire.ca/en/releases/archive/May2009/06/c9019.html
Two things to mention:
Contrary to the ‘urban myth’ supported in a number of media, cyclists do contribute to road and highway maintenance. All taxes go into general revenue, so if you pay tax of any kind you are contributing to transit infrastructure. License fees, gas tax, etc. all go to general revenue. If you are a home owner your taxes go to general revenue to maintain the roads in your municpality doesn’t matter if your are a driver, cyclist, scooter driver or pedestrian. The roads belong to everybody not just people in cars and trucks. Here is an interesting site for more information: http://ipayroadtax.com/
two: I have been informed that the completion of the Wain Road bike paths will happen before Thanksgiving. Not too many bits left before we have a nice couple of loops into Sidney.
It is great to hear of people being out and enjoying the neighbourhood and I do agree that there are way too many people that drive too fast around the Deep Cove area and likely other areas as well. Please contact the municipality requesting lower speed limits, more signage and at least some enforcement.
I know it is nice to be out with the dog however I am totally against anyone riding their bike and having their dog with them whether the dog is on or off the lead. It is very dangerous to the dog, other cyclists and the dog owner. I know of a number of people that have been tangled in the dogs lead, cyclists trying to avoid dogs and crashing as well as badly injured dogs. Almost all of the dog owners in these cases were sure that their dog was under total control. If you want to be out with your dogs please walk with them.
Me and my dog often ride together. Well, I ride and he runs. We love it.
Also, I have done a lot of commuting on the bike, riding alone, single file, etc. etc. and I must say that the drivers around here (Deep Cove area) are often pretty aggressive. Nothing like a big old Mercedes family van running you off into the ditch while the pretty pretty blond chitchats on her cell, examines her manicure and drives, all at once! Maybe they aren’t aggressive, maybe it’s just a big vast void behind the eyes. Who knows. What I do know is that cyclists are vulnerable.
Cycling is the best form of exercise, it is very fun, it is good for my state of mind and I just wish that more people would get out of their cars and join in!
Although I used to enjoy riding my bicycle as a child, I refuse to cycle on the busier roads of Greater Victoria. I find many of these roads to be an invitation to an untimely death (Shelbourne St between Hillside & Bay in particular). Many roads are barely wide enough for two lanes of traffic (esp. when there is parking on both sides of the street), and I barely feel safe driving a motor vehicle on these roads, let alone a bicycle. Also, I feel really guilty knowing that I am impeding traffic because I am not able to travel over 40 kmh, and people are trying to get to work/school/etc. in a timely fashion. To me, if Victoria had the proper infrastructure for safe separation of motorists and cyclists(i.e. major roads with EMPTY shoulders and/or bike lanes), I would be much more willing to use a bicycle to travel. However, with Victoria being the place that it is, I doubt we will see a road-widening project of that scale in this city any time soon.
Wendy said: “But some cyclists are so heavy in conversation they don’t notice their surroundings.”
I don’t wish to digress into an arguement, but how do you know this? How can you possibly know what another person is, or isn’t aware of? I can assure you that in the groups I ride with, our level of awareness is very, very high, because we know what the results are should something go wrong.
Wendy also said: “I just happen to believe that cyclists are safer riding single file.”
Using reason, I’ve tried to spell out why that is actually more dangerous on the narrower roads, as the cars attempt to (illegally) squeeze through that slot between you and any on-coming vehicle. I can’t tell you how many times a vehicle has blasted past me only inches away like they’re on their way to a fire, leaving me feeling like I just shook hands with Mr. Death.
Wendy said: Maybe it would be a good idea for cycle shops to offer short safety seminars on road cycling? (yes, drivers too.)
Yes, I agree. Education is key. I think there are efforts made by various cycling organizations. The editor of this site has earlier mentioned this:
There is a very good reference booklet put out by the British Columbia Cycling Coalition and the Greater Victoria Cycling Coalition called “BIKE SENSE” http://bikesense.bc.ca/. It is well worth the read and is available at the GVCC office in Centennial Square in Victoria or many of the bike shops.
Ultimately and ideally though, it is when someone goes to acquire their drivers licence that education and awareness need to be instilled before bad habits and unawareness become entrenched.
Again, note how these problems vanish the moment a bike lane is in place. Obviously we can’t expect all roads to have these, but many of our roads are clear candidates for them, so let’s voice their inclusion to our municipalities.
Cheers Wendy, and I hope you find some more time to get out there and feel the wind in your face (if it ever stops raining).
Before “Anon” flies over the handlebars, I would to say that no one was complaining about group cyclists being in loud conversation. I certainly don’t mind it. In a way it’s a good thing because it warns walkers or horseback riders that a group of cyclists are approaching. But some cyclists are so heavy in conversation they don’t notice their surroundings.
I just happen to believe that cyclists are safer riding single file – I know I feel safer riding that way because some drivers just don’t have the patients to wait for a safe place to pass. If riding single file keeps me safe then I would prefer that to being clipped by a vehicle.
The Editor mentioned there are several different levels of cycle groups. Some are more professional than others. The ones who are not, don’t seem to understand that it’s a two way street when it comes to sharing the road with vehicles.
I have no idea who the group of cyclists are that pass by my home. I only know that every time I see or hear them it makes me envious that I am not able to spend as much time on my bike as I would like to.
Maybe it would be a good idea for cycle shops to offer short safety seminars on road cycling? (yes, drivers too.)
A couple of things I would like to comment on. I think it would be helpful to be clearer who we are talking about. In the above comments statements are mostly directed to ‘club cyclists’ out on ‘club rides’ or ‘training rides’. Part of their training is to ride together in a group (peloton), many of the riders in these clubs are able to maintain most of the local speed limits. There shouldn’t really be a rush to overtake but as Anon has pointed out some drivers can not stand to be impeded( your typical road rage candidate).It almost seems at times that these drivers think they are going to be arrested if they don’t pass or maybe not get to heaven. mmmhhh Driven to pass! sorry.:)
It appears there is mostly a problem with a large peloton especially if it tries to control the traffic or blasts through a stop sign en masse. Why not break the group into 3 sub groups. The faster riders could ride off the front, start the groups at intervals. That way if the law every gets around to allowing riding two abreast a group of ten would only be about 30 feet long and if necessary form into a pace line easily and quickly.
There is a mid-week group. They come out from Victoria and have coffee at the Red Brick Cafe on Beacon Ave on Wednesday mornings. They then ride out and around Landsend and Madrona I believe. Even though this group can be upwards of twenty to thirty riders they don’t ride in a large group but are strung out over a long distance and are either riding singularly or two abreast, never more. I should add these are mostly older, very experienced riders (a significant number of them have cycled cross-canada) Many of them are involved in randonneuring (long distance cycling). They too dress in spandex and ride road bikes. These riders are likely the most experienced in riding with fast traffic around them.
Now there are other cyclists on the road and they don’t have as many problems directed to them as the club riders.
Commuters are usually very ‘road savvy’ (vehicular cyclists). They follow the laws, know when to take the lane, when not to argue with a 2000 lb car even if they are in the right and generally do not antogonize most drivers
There are also recreational riders that can be seen riding a hybrid bike, a mountain bike, a cruiser, a recumbent or a road bike. Most of these riders know a lot of the rules and laws but not all and a lot are quite unsure of themselves as riders (especially in traffic. Some of the riders that ride road bikes like to go fast and for the most part they are very skillful and quite often out on there own or with a friend.
There are many times when I am driving that i feel a lot safer coming up behind a peloton as opposed to someone that is animatedly chatting away to a friend, on a cell phone or with their dog on a leash (this has got to be one of the most dangerous things to do on a bike, It puts the rider at risk, other riders and vehicles at risk not to mention what could happen to the dog, same goes for loose dogs on the bike path). So although the recreational rider does not usually ride in a large group they are capable of creating many problems and safety issues. I think it is this group of riders that really need education. I say this for their own good, others too i imagine. The education of DRIVERS is crucial to sharing the road and the safety of all on the the road.(One other pet peeve of mine is people that ride the wrong way. Almost as dangerous as the dog rider, can you imagine someone doing both!.
[yes, twice yesterday]
Wendy said: “Every morning a large group of cyclists ride by our home. They are heavy in conversation with each other and are straddling the entire road.”
Really? Every morning? Or is it just Saturday and/or Sunday? I am one of these individuals you refer to, and I would sure like to know of weekday rides that I could join in on; I’ve never heard of them.
There are times when the pace eases up and some conversation occurs, but most of the time the pace is such that one’s anaerobic threshold kills conversation. Besides, so what if we’re conversing; is that forbidden now too in the three seconds that we go by your house?
Is it really accurate to say that we’re “straddling the entire road”, or is this yet another exaggeration in an attempt to skew readers’ emotions?
To the uninitiated, it may appear that we’re not aware of vehicles, but believe me, we are. A person at the back traditionally yells out “car back” to the group when necesary. Some vehicles now are very quiet, and may go un-noticed for a short spell, so a very (very) light toot of the horn is ok to let us know that you’re there. Leaning on the horn does not, and will not help.
After the incident on Lands End Rd a while back, there was much dialogue on the Times-Colonist web site, and many good points were raised in the defence of riding two abreast (which may become permitted in the future). I won’t go into all of them here, but imagine that a group of 30 riders was riding single file; that’s about 210 feet, whereas 2 abreast cuts the length in HALF, resulting in an easier & quicker pass for the driver.
Remember, because of the narrower roads, a vehicle may only pass when safe to do so, so even if those cyclists in the Lands End incident were riding single file, the accident would have still occured, as the driver passed when unsafe to do so (at an intersection).
I can say from 20 years cycling experience: when there is an on-coming vehicle, the vast majority of the time, a driver coming up behind will NOT wait a few seconds to exercise a safe pass, but will attempt to squeeze through the cyclist and the on-coming vehicle. So if it is legally permitted (and it is) for a cyclist to ride in the middle of the lane in that scenerio (thereby “owning the lane”), then it follows that cyclists riding two abreast are essentially doing the same thing by preventing the driver from attempting that dangerous, precarious and illegal pass that they usually do proceed with.
It is even a common experience to have a driver pass, (giving adequate space – thank you) but will make that pass on a BLIND CORNER! They place themselves half-way in the oncoming lane on a blind corner!!! It’s as though they’re in a trance and are robotically saying: “Must……Pass. Can’t….slow…..down…..”
Again, let’s raise our consciousness and understand that the problem lays in the fact that most of our roads are not designed properly for the accomodation of both cyclist and vehicular traffic, so instead of wasting energy fighting & blaming, let’s encourage (demand?) our municiplaities to make it safe and stress-free for all by the addition & inclusion of proper bike lanes. Where they do exist, notice how the conflict vanishes.
Have y’all been to the bike store yet?
Cheers.
more than “rule of the road”. It is the law under the MVA. Even in bike lanes. Bike lanes are considered part of the road.
As someone who cycles, I will agree that cyclists do need to exercise better caution when riding – especially when riding in groups. Every morning a large group of cyclists ride by our home. They are heavy in conversation with each other and are straddling the entire road. Yes, they are having a good time, but they don’t seem to notice that vehicles are approaching them from both directions. Cyclists should ride single file – even in bike lanes for their own safety. Isn’t that the rule of the road?
Anon2 said: [quote]Just the other day whilst driving down Lands End Road I had to overtake cyclists riding 3 to 4 abreast, just weeks after the recent accident there. When will they learn.[/quote]
a) I hear this claim often, yet in my 20 years of group-riding, (and driving), I’ve never seen that occur. I suspect that it is possibly an exaggeration in order to slander cyclists.
b) What do you mean when you say “When will they learn”? Who is “they”? I am stunned at the terrible, atrocious, appauling driving habits & abilities of some drivers, so would it be correct for me to tar all drivers with the same brush and assert: “Those drivers, when will they learn?”
I agree that there are some cyclists who don’t conduct themselves as well as they could whilst on the road, but the yahoo with no helmet, riding on the sidewalk with a case of beer in one hand should not be regarded as a representative of what a cyclist is.
There really needs to be an attitudinal shift by drivers towards cyclists. It is the most environmentally friendly and efficient mode of transportation possible. There are many who have a relatively short commute to work, yet choose to drive a fossil-fuel burning mass of steel when they could easily ride a bike.
CYCLING:
- Fossil fuels burned: Zero.
- Air pollution: Zero.
- Noise pollution: Zero.
-Increase in health & fitness and the subsequent lower burden on the health care system: Huge.
- Number of wildlife killed whilst cycling: Zero.
- Number of cyclists killed by other cyclists: Probably at or near zero.
Many European countries (Holland for example), have a completely different attitude towards cyclists. Unfortunately, the North American attitude is one which worships the automobile, and the car is king. Look where that has got us: thousands of Canadians killed every year and families destroyed; increased obeisity and general lack of fitness and a resultant massive drain on the health care system ($$$).
Today’s bikes have come a long way and are a pleasure to ride. I encourage all to pay a visit to a bike shop (not a big-box store) and see what’s available. Re-discover that joyous feeling you had as a kid! Start slow, then try riding to work if possible, you’ll be amazed at how awake and energized you feel! Or maybe just do some beautiful, summer evening rides on the Saanich Peninsula. You’ll be amazed at how much more connected you’ll feel to your environment and how many more things you’ll notice in our lovely area.
Cheers!
Well said! editor.
As legal and legitimate parts of traffic ,the cyclists should also be responsible for their own insurance whilst riding on the road and contribute towards road improvements and maintenance like all the other users of the roads.
Just the other day whilst driving down Lands end road I had to overtake cyclists riding 3 to 4 abreast, just weeks after the recent accident there. When will they learn….before you comment please know that I am an avid cyclist.
I’m not sure what you mean by being “responsible for their own insurance”, is somebody else currently looking after that?
Anyone that is a taxpayer contributes towards road improvements and maintenance wether they drive or not, cycle or not. Almost all of the funds for improvements and maintenance come from general revenue not gas taxes, ICBC premiums or licensing fees. editor
Please see pages 84, 85, and 86 on the following PDF link:
http://www.icbc.com/Licensing/RoadSense%20for%20Drivers%20PDFs/RoadSense_for_Drivers_Sharing_the_Road_MV2075.pdf
(from the ICBC Road Sense book).
some really good information here, this handbook does
recommend
as a driver, one should keep at ‘least one metre’ from a cyclist. Now if only that was the law in the MVA! I think there are a number of cycling organizations lobbying to try and make it law. I believe that currently the language in the MVA says motorists must pass “at a safe distance”. There is a very good reference booklet put out by the British Columbia Cycling Coalition and the Greater Victoria Cycling Coalition called “BIKE SENSE” http://bikesense.bc.ca/. It is well worth the read and is available at the GVCC office in Centennial Square in Victoria or many of the bike shops. Thanks for the link. editor
Excellent! It seems that most motorists are not aware of the fact that cyclists are legal and legitimate parts of traffic, and may not be passed until safe to do so, just as with another vehicle. This is a ticketable offence. It’s the law.
The majority of our roads are narrow, and were not designed properly to accomodate both cyclists and vehicles. This is where the problem resides in the vast majority of issues between the two.
When the driver of a vehicle approaches a cyclist from behind, (and there is any on-coming traffic), the driver is NOT permitted to pass, as they
must
(this should likely read ‘should’, I think all cyclists would like this to be in the MVA but I don’t think it is there yet. editor) allow at least one metre space between the cyclist and their vehicle. Passing the cyclist with the required one metre requires (on the narrow-ish roads) to cross the painted line and be in the on-coming lane. Most drivers seem to proceed with this maneouvre even when there is on-coming traffic, and stubbornly, selfishly insist on sqeezing through that narrow space only inches away from the vulnerable cyclist.
Any improvements to our roads to properly accomodate cyclists will not only add to the safety of cyclists and aid the flow of traffic, but will encourage others to use their bike more. “Build it and they will come”.